MRSA Discussion Forum USA and Canada |
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lesion question
Started by abcdeb |
Posted: February 1, 2010 at 21:43 | |
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I'm wondering about lesions. I know I keep harping on this, but I can't seem to let it go. I certainly apologize for taking everyone's time! And you all understand so much more than my friends! My lesion had the hard, itchy bump in the middle, and that grew to about the size of a dime. But....the area immediately surrounding that got bright red (like an angry red color), probably three inches or so around. The red area surrounding the middle bump was not a smooth circle around the edges, but jagged and pointy. It was not raised, only the middle part. As I've said before, the middle part does not open and drain. Does anyone else get such an angry red area around their lesion? I hope I'm not the only one! Thank you all once again! You make me feel better just by listening. 16276
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Re: lesion question
Reply #1 by ruth |
Posted: February 1, 2010 at 23:32 | |
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Yes, sometimes I get angry red around a hard itchy bump. I put liquid nettle, echinacea and goldenseal on it. And ice it. This stops the itch and eases the pain. I take aspirin, nettle tea quercitin, fish oil and evening primrose to reduce the inflammation. As well as the meds from my doctor. 16278
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Re: lesion question
Reply #2 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 2, 2010 at 22:30 | |
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Thank you, Ruth! I guess I keep clinging to the teeny tiny hope that if my lesions were different than everybody else's, perhaps I didn't have MRSA, but another (and maybe less scary) infection. Can MRSA present in different ways? 16279
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Re: lesion question
Reply #3 by Nancy R |
Posted: February 4, 2010 at 06:00 | |
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Since everyone's immune systems are different, MRSA can present a bit differently with each of us. Often, what we are seeing are complications of the bacteria. Cellulitis is a good example. Sometimes MRSA will invade the tissue and destroy the fat layer leaving some nasty scarring. I had that happen at the site of my hip replacement. After the dead tissue was removed, it left me with a nasty and deep scar. I look like I've survived a shark attack. That is not to say that will happen to you, but my immune system was so compromised from the ongoing infections and the antibiotics therapy, that this happened to me. 16281
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Re: lesion question
Reply #4 by ladyk |
Posted: February 4, 2010 at 17:13 | |
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abcdeb - You wrote: ["There is nothing I can think of to do that I don't already do."] The repeat lesion (undetermined species) at same particular body site is your clue. In my opinion it is one of two things… either bacteria has not been cleared during initial I&D. Or. Perhaps cross contamination is as inconspicuous as sitting on toilet where lowered underwear brush up against toilet bowl (yuk) then are pulled up where bacteria is transferred to lesion site? *Become acutely aware of what comes in contact with this particular site. Do you inadvertently touch site when adjusting pants? Do you wear the low style pants that expose this area when you sit down? Do you have tattoo in the area? Do you always wash pants after wearing? Does underwear cover site? Does underwear elastic touch this site? Have you tried Tea Tree Oil on site? This greatly reduced itch in my experience. Best to you, ladyk 16286
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Re: lesion question
Reply #5 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 4, 2010 at 22:03 | |
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Thank you, Nancy and ladyk! Yes, I have a small scar that goes in, so I'm assuming I had some tissue damage as well. It's funny, but I was actually feeling so great right before it happened (beginning of November)! I came through abdominal surgery with flying colors and was thinking of joining a gym. I had not been sick or on antibiotics in a long time, and I thought I was pretty healthy (ha!). This was completely out of the blue. Ladyk, am I understanding this correctly? Somehow, I had to touch (or something did) that particular spot? It's not from a cut on my hand, for example? If I have a cut on my hand or leg or anywhere else that heals perfectly, could bacteria enter that cut and "travel" to my lower back/butt? How would it do that? Or something had to touch three times that particular spot (three lesions total), which is now completely weak, I'm sure? I don't have a tattoo or wear low pants - don't want to scare the kids! Pardon the gross factor, but I suppose it's possible (but not likely) that my underwear (yuck is right!!) brushed against the toilet bowl. Yes, underwear covers the site, and it's also possible that when I'm pulling it up, the elastic touches the site. I bleach my underwear with every washing, but it is old! So again, it's that particular site I need to watch like a hawk, right?! I wash it every morning with the Hibiclens, and I'm guessing I'll do that forever. Thank you all again - 16288
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Re: lesion question
Reply #6 by ladyk |
Posted: February 5, 2010 at 13:21 | |
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abcdeb - Thanks for the smile~ how old are the kids you’re teaching? Initially something did touch site, thereafter it could be either of the possibilities. I was thinking about you/lesion and wanted to ask a few questions on my previous post to you, attempting to figure out your situation. Please seriously think long and hard if it should come to physician ordering antibiotics. The biggest mystery in your case... is there has been no culture, therefore any antibiotics taken would be treating blindly, and as we know this risks resistance along with other complications. Frankly, I would raise the roof to find out what this is. I don't give out this site very often, but you might take a look through the skin anomalies (some are quite graphic - sorry) for closest match. If you find a close match please post it. http://www.skinsight.com/diseaseGroups/mrsa.htm http://www.skinsight.com/skinConditionFinder.htm Stay as healthy as possible, keep up your immune support… Best wishes, hugs to you. ladyk 16289
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Re: lesion question
Reply #7 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 5, 2010 at 22:24 | |
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Hi, ladyk, Thank you for all your thoughts! I am a reading specialist (sounds pretty fancy, but basically I teach students who are struggling with reading how to read. Or I TRY to, anyway! This year I teach second grade and kindergarten. Awesome ages!). OK, I haven't had a chance to check out the websites yet, but I will. I actually have pictures of my lesions, but since this isn't a porno site - smile -, I won't post them anywhere. My butt crack (sorry - don't know what else to call it!) is in all the pictures in all its glory, and I can't figure out how to get it out of there!!! I'm happy to email you pictures personally, if that's even possible. My first lesion in May, 2008, was completely different. A red, itchy bump (they all start the same), then some bruising around it, no more than an inch around, skin started to peel, all done. No problem. The next one in December, 2008, same spot, turned into the angry red surrounding circle, went to emergency room on weekend (doctor said to), doctor there said it was shingles, but that didn't jive with what I thought (only one lesion, no real pain...). Went to my doctor recommended surgeon next. He didn't do the I&D then because he said my body was doing what it was supposed to do, prescribed Doxycycline w/o culturing. Regular doctor tried rubbing a swab on it but nothing grew. Apparently the Doxy was the right way to go. On to November, 2009. Next itchy, mosquito bite thing. Now, remember, I had been using absolutely no precautions other than hand washing (no Hibi, no bleach other than normal, etc.). But this time, surgeon did I&D (still not sure if he HAD to), said there was no pus to send out to culture. Again gave Doxy, again it went away. Scary, though, because this thing gets bad FAST! Within two days!!! You can almost watch it grow. That's a basic history. I understand completely how much worse this could get and how I'm lucky that a week of Doxy cleared everything up. Ladyk, I'm still confused about how it can travel to that spot. If it enters through a cut somewhere else on my body, how does it travel? In my blood? Wouldn't that be septicemia (sp?). I picture little bacteria bugs with lots of legs crawling up my arms and down my back, to their favorite spot! :) I look forward to hearing from you again. Thank you again! 16290
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Re: lesion question
Reply #8 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 5, 2010 at 23:46 | |
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OK, I checked those sites. I'm torn between the folliculitis and cellulitis. I think I remember the surgeon saying something about an infected hair follicle, but I think he also said cellulitis somewhere in the conversation. Yikes! I do remember that he said in his experience (7 years), it looks like MRSA. Oh, and he also said, it's not the EXACT same spot, meaning it could be one pore over, but not the EXACT spot. To me, that's the same spot! By the way, I have none of those risk factors - I don't shave the area, I'm not obese, I don't work out wearing tight clothes! And a second by the way, I asked the surgeon how to prevent this, and he said - exact quote here - "You can't." 16292
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Re: lesion question
Reply #9 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 6, 2010 at 15:22 | |
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Must have been cellulitis. I just read on dermatology.com (I think) that cellulitis doesn't have pus to culture. One mystery might be solved! 16293
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Re: lesion question
Reply #10 by ladyk |
Posted: February 6, 2010 at 16:18 | |
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abcdeb - You wrote [“Ladyk, I'm still confused about how it can travel to that spot. If it enters through a cut somewhere else on my body, how does it travel? In my blood? Wouldn't that be septicemia ”] Very good question. I think first you have to take into consideration colonization. Since we know of particular sites bacteria prefer (nares, armpits, groin, perineum, buttocks - often moist, dark, warm breeding environments), but just because bacteria prefer particular sites… doesn’t mean this in any way reduces the possibility of bacteria being found elsewhere about the body. Then there is cross contamination. For example one study shows we touch our faces an average of 16 times an hour! Whether flu virus, or bacteria… cross contamination is just that simple. http://www.redorbit.com/news/video/science/5/scientists_study_face_touchers/29943/index.html?utm_id=Miniplayer&utm_source=Miniplayer%2Bon%2BRedorbit&utm_medium=Miniplayer%2BSource&utm_campaign=Miniplayer Once contraction occurs any one of a family of enzymes, also known as hyaluronate lyases (salt of hyaluronic acid) or spreading factors, produced by mammals, reptiles, insects, and bacteria, which catalyze the breakdown of hyaluronic acid (a gel like aminoglycan that is found in the tissue space, the synovial fluid of joints, and the vitreous humor of the eyes and acts as a binding, lubricating, and protective agent). Some hyaluronidases also attack other similar polysaccharides. Since all liquefy the polysaccharide gel (any of a class of carbohydrates, such as starch and cellulose, consisting of a number of monosaccharides joined by glycosidic bonds) which fills the tissue spaces, they effectively accelerate diffusion so that injected, dissolved, or particulate matter (bacteria, viruses, toxins, or pigments) can diffuse through a larger volume of tissue. The biological importance of the enzyme depends upon its source. That found in the culture filtrates of many strains of virulent bacteria permits the microorganisms to gain access to a larger volume of the host's tissue and, hence, to additional nutriment. That found in the venom of certain snakes and bees permits the toxin to produce more extensive damage to the victim. The high concentration of Vitamin C in human tissues probably provides a low level of natural resistance to the pneumococcal invasion. This is the first time that Vc the direct inhibition on the bacterial “spreading factor” was reported, and Vc is also the first chemical that has been shown experimentally to have an inhibitory effect on bacterial hyaluronate lyase. These studies also highlight the possible structural requirement for the design of a stronger inhibitor of bacterial hyaluronate lyase. http://homepage.uab.edu/skelly/spnHL_JBC.pdf con't 16294
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Re: lesion question
Reply #11 by ladyk |
Posted: February 6, 2010 at 16:20 | |
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As you asked in your post... if one had a cut somewhere on your body, how does it travel? The bacteria can travel by methods explained above… additionally you are correct in saying bacteria is also capable of traveling in our blood, which quite likely will lead to septicemia when we consider MRSA. Awesome job with the little kids~ ladyk PS Although the site of my initial contraction swelled 4-5 times normal… there was no purulent drainage, only volumes of frank red blood from surgical incision and two hour exploratory. Days later culture was MRSA positive. 16295
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Re: lesion question
Reply #12 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 6, 2010 at 19:01 | |
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Oh my gosh, much of that was over my head, but I understand the bottom line. It can travel through my body without infecting my blood, which means that I still have to practice all precautions (not that I ever stopped) and not just worry about that certain spot. And...it's built to survive and will do whatever it has to do. Thank you, ladyK, for all the time you've spent with me. The March issue of Consumer Reports had an interesting (but short) article on hospital germs and infections. Check out www.ConsumerReportsHealth.org/hospitalinfections. Some states publish hospital infection reports, and you can find a link there to your state's report, if it's published. 16296
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Re: lesion question
Reply #13 by Mom in Calif |
Posted: February 7, 2010 at 04:51 | |
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Off-topic, slightly - but ladyk's quote which included the effect of vitamin C in apparently inhibiting the enyzme mechanism which spreads bacteria reminded me of an abstract I saw about the same topic: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1944394?dopt=Abstract The vitamin C had the effect of decreasing the bacteria's resistance to antibiotics... 16299
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Re: lesion question
Reply #14 by Bob Anderson |
Posted: February 7, 2010 at 14:52 | |
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The location and description of your lesion does not rule out a recurrent virus. I know a few people who get similar lesions occasionally; they're a nuisance but not generally dangerous. I would have it checked to be sure what it is or isn't. Just my opinion. Good luck to you. 16302
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Re: lesion question
Reply #15 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 7, 2010 at 15:52 | |
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Thanks for your opinion, Bob! Actually, shingles was a possibility mentioned by two doctors (the emergency room doctor and my ID doctor - but he never saw it. Just telling me things it COULD be). However, it wasn't that painful and the skin was warm to the touch. Anyway, I'm optimistic that I'll never ever get it again, but I'm also a realist! My ID doctor said if I do get it again, don't do anything to it (meaning don't put tea tree oil on it, no garlic, no nothing), but come there and get it tested. You might be right!!! Hopefully!! :) 16303
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Re: lesion question
Reply #16 by Tana |
Posted: February 12, 2010 at 23:02 | |
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This sounds all to familiar. My Mrsa started in one spot and I had it lanced and it seemed to go away and then came back right next to where the first one was.Had to have it lanced again and both times on antibiotics,and again it came back worse than ever.Its was so bad they told me it was tunneling through the tissue of my butt and had to do surgery where they literally cut it open deep and took this long Q tip thing and stuck it in this deep cut and scrambled my a-- like a couple of eggs.They did not have time to give me anything before doing this for pain and did it in the emergency room because my fever was out of control and the infection was so bad they said I was close to dying. I have nerve damage that causes pain constantly.Anyway I have been alternating between silver,allicin and oregano oil along with hibi 3 times a week and have been free from outbreaks for 7 months now.I also drink kefir daily and chlorophyll concentrate daily and eat a low acidic diet,this works for me. 16316
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Re: lesion question
Reply #17 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 13, 2010 at 15:41 | |
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Yikes, Tana! I'm sorry they did that without giving you anything! When I had my incision and drainage, I went back two days later for the surgeon to check it. I asked my mom later why he opened it back up. She said he didn't, he just checked the edges. It truly felt like he completely opened up the wound and stuck that long Q-tip in there, so I know how painful that must have been!!! They must have been taking the infected tissue out. That's very scary. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? How quickly did that horrible lesion come after the one you had lanced? Did you only have the two lesions? OK, you're taking supplements of allicin and oregano oil? What about the silver? Is that a supplement or do you rub it on that area? I've looked for kefir here, but haven't seen any yet, but there's a natural food store I haven't tried yet. I'm not familiar with chlorophyll concentrate. So glad you're OK now!!! I'm going to a naturopathic doctor on Monday. In my state, they're not licensed, but this person has a license in another state. I'll let you all know what happens. 16318
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Re: lesion question
Reply #18 by Nancy R |
Posted: February 14, 2010 | |
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To make kefir, you will need kefir culture. Natural food stores sometimes sell kefir grains, and you can also order kefir starter through various Internet retailers. You will also need a large clean jar and some fresh milk. Ideally, you should boil the jar before use, to ensure that it is as clean as possible before you start to make kefir. Start by pouring the kefir grains into the jar, and then filling the jar about 2/3 of the way with milk. Remember that as you make kefir, it will expand, so resist the temptation to fill it any higher. Cover the jar with a clean cloth, or use a burping lid which will allow gases and pressure to escape. If you do not use a burping lid, your kefir jar could potentially explode as the milk ferments! Traditional kefir is fermented at room temperature, and depending on ambient temperatures this will take 12-48 hours. A short fermentation yields a thinner, less sour kefir, while long fermentation creates a rich, very thick, sour kefir. If you leave the kefir out even longer, it can turn fizzy and intensely sour; it is perfectly safe to drink, but the strong flavor can put some people off. You can also encourage a slower fermentation by storing your kefir in the fridge. After you make kefir to taste, it needs to be strained to remove the culture so that the fermentation will stop. Pour the kefir through a fine strainer or cheesecloth into another clean jar, and store it in the fridge until it is consumed. The starter can be moved to a fresh jar so that a new batch of kefir can be fermented. You can also store kefir starter in the fridge, if you want to slow the fermentation process to stagger your batches of kefir. The natural flavor of kefir is sour, tangy, and thick. However, fermented milk products can go wrong; if you have the slightest doubt after you make kefir, throw it out, because you do not want to get sick from harmful bacteria. Signs that your kefir has gone bad include any molds, spots of discoloration, or intensely sharp, sour odors. 16319
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Re: lesion question
Reply #19 by abcdeb |
Posted: February 14, 2010 at 14:21 | |
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Thank you for the kefir instructions and the many details! I've copied them and will give it a try. Can you add strawberries or blueberries or anything to give it a better flavor? Thank you again for your time. 16325
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